From the very moment I saw Addendum I assumed that this proposed TZM would try it’s best to be the most open-minded and sophisticated movement world has ever seen with help of scientific method.

When I joined zeitgeist.fi and started to work with Finnish members of movement I saw and experienced this openness, embracement of freedom of speech and embracement of all critics that could help us perform even better. Thus isn’t the way we handle critic very essential part when using scientific method?

I have seen this willingness of use scientific method best way we can to improve our behavior and action in TZM’s Finnish (almost) chapter so I’m quite hopeful to see in here international forum also.

The reason I’m writing this is partly ’cause I’ve seen and heard some little bit disturbing things which I consider to be lack of using scientific method the best way that it’s reasonable and humanly possible with our resources.
And even more ’cause I just simply want TZM to become the change we wish to see in the world – example and living implementation of using scientific method to constantly improve society.

We claim that in the movement there are no leaders and we arrive to decisions by natural process of using S. Method, rather than make them.

Still there are many things what seem to me like decision making and leadership. For example PJ is answering questions in The Zeitgeist Movement Weekly Radio Address – not for example TZM by using some method of open source method to create text. Instead we use that method to translations and some other things.

And I’m not saying PJ dominating The Zeitgeist Movement Weekly Radio Address would be bad thing and some other method better – but I am saying that I can not honestly claim other people that TZM arrives to decision with help of S method if we can not be open to other options as “official” functions of TZM that those what are dominant at the moment.

And yes I think it would be better for TZM image and thus TZM goal to let some other guys also answer questions in The Zeitgeist Movement Weekly Radio Address. Even though all PJ’s radio addresses I’ve listened have been great and I haven’t heard almost anything I would like to disagree. But I don’t actually fully agree that TZM is activist arm of TVP TM ‘cause I haven’t seen enough convincing proves that TVP TM would be the best organization there is to make those basic ideas of TVP TM happen in real life.

And please don’t take me wrong I do think that TVP provides us great ideas and visions of better world we could achieve if we just would update our society with using S. method. I just try to say that with my logic it doesn’t seem very scientific to say “they have best ideas” and kind of forget all other options. And I don’t claim that TZM has shut its eyes from all other options but it kind of seems to me that TZM could be more open to them.

So I hope that TZM would now practice what I understand to be main teachings of PJ and Fresco – be critical, use your own brains, practice source criticism, don’t take anybodies word for it and “I’m not a leader”. I’ve found that TZM is very transparent what it comes to this forum and I’m not suggesting open democracy for decision making of TZM, but is there a way to make TZM use scientific method when arriving to decisions better than it’s used now?
Way to run this movement where PJ seems to have (almost) the final word in big decisions and Fresco is another main source of information( what I consider to be some kind of open aristocratic way) could be humanly best at this time when we’re still just spreading the awareness. But is it really? Could we make even better now – not just later while waiting AI unconsciously side slipping towards good meaning but still dogmatic establishment like Greenpeace, Amnesty and all others which we criticize for lack of using constructive critic what scientific method offers.

Now let us openly demonstrate that we at least try our best to do better than those organizations we self criticize!

And please try to understand that I’m not trying to attack against anybody and I’m not expecting perfection from anyone – I’m quite oppositely very aware that though PJ and Fresco has done some awesome work still it’s not wise or even fair to expect perfection from them! Thus we can consider is it best for TZM (meaning its idea for making better world for all using S.M.) to “let” these people to dominate public image of TZM?

I hope that PJ or no other feels him / her insulted hear and as PJ has seem to be very rational man I hope best for him also now demonstrate what he says is true and we can have conversation in a civilized way how we should arrive to decisions when “PJ is not a leader.”

Ps. Examples from places where our much advertized financial transparency could be better.

www.zeitgeistmovie.com/dvdorder.htm
www.zeitgeistmovie.com/shirt.htm
thevenusproject.com/store-donate

Examples from failure of embracing (constructive) critic:

“I don't think he makes any profit this way, because it probably just covers the travel expenses and housing, during such visits.

About the price estimation - that would make 3$ per person, if there were 2000 in the audience. It's hard to travel around the world for just a small group of people, so it should be encouraged that more attendants are gathered for a lecture.”
“but the one thing you MUST remember is that they ARENT making a "PROFIT" out of all this, seriously guys, you think youre gonna make them rich with 25 for a book, or the visit which costs around 200$ i think, though im not sure, during which u get lots of material

and another thing, where the hell do you think that money is going to, do you really believe that they spend that money on LUXURY???
they go on long holidays in distant countries??
they drive around in a limo, have a personal driver, a personal assistant, a butler and what not ???

i mean WTF, all the money they receive is going STRAIGHT into creating solutions for problems through different projects, The Venus Project in general, making films, making more material, and ofcourse to feed themselves and pay their bills..
the reason they are selling the research center on florida is because THEY CANT AFFORD it, so how in the world do you think youre making them rich?”

www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/inde...atid=3&id=188421

And yeah that isn't the best example of constructive criticism. And english wikipedia definess that little bit differently what I've used to understand Finnish version of term "rakentava kritiikki".

Pps. I'm aware of term consern troll so please consider before accusing that I've considered my self as a memeber of movement about 9 months, written one of the first TZM positive articel to main stream Finnish journal with my own name as response to unaccurate critic of my childhoold idol and done much more...

So maybe I'm just crazy and only demonstrating my own narcissistic personality, but please lets try to demonstrate our well advertised pursue for constructive behavior!

One aspect perhaps overlooked is that whilst Fresco's home goes unsold, I estimate over $1 million has already been spent collectively in us going to see Fresco/PJ/Z Meetings, travel expenses/etc. which have achieved nothing of any real consquence, and if the money had instead been donated towards buying Fresco's home, we could see more progress than we had to date.

The internet, forums, email, IRC, Teamspeak, are todays modern solution to saving a fortune on travel expenses, and saving time, we really should make more use of them and restrict physical movement to moments when its really going to be beneficial, and not just a waste of resource which could be used elsewhere more productively.

Im glad others are coming to the same conclusion that there are always ways to improve through critical and creative thinking and discussion instead of relying on some kind autocracy.


There are many ways we can improve, and I have to agree with 99% of what you say mouho!

Nanos wrote:


The internet, forums, email, IRC, Teamspeak, are todays modern solution to saving a fortune on travel expenses, and saving time, we really should make more use of them and restrict physical movement to moments when its really going to be beneficial, and not just a waste of resource which could be used elsewhere more productively.

Yeah, and there also seems to be problems like this when Peter Joseph is only one who can make "official statements" for TZM. I don't know details about that but I honestly think that any movement shouldn't be so dependent from so few leaders. Especially one that claims having no leaders.

What I have now watched just couple of days this international forum, read FAQ's, asked questions in irc and so on - I find that this movement could use scientific method much better than we now do!
I agree almost all basic ideas that TVP has said been supporting in public but,
Peter Joseph wrote:

I have talked about physics, medicine and many issues with him and he is a catalog of important information and unique methods. Some of his awareness of scientific issues are so profound that he refuses to let me even address them publicly for they are too powerful. .

Re:Wheres The Scientific Method?


This sounds pretty elitist to me… Maybe that’s true and wise thing to do but claims of one having some powerful secret information rings my alarm bell. (As we say in Finland.)

We claim to be transparent and ”means are the goal” many ways we are all that but am I crazy when I can not honestly say that PJ is not leader of TZM? He pretty much seems to be the one and only who is expected to give final answers of all questions about TZM...

If I'm wrong please correct me ASAP and if i'm right (at the moment) please lets solve the proplem to gether!

Someone has already started google wave about this "TZM upgrading" project

And here is link to that wave

wave.google.com/wave/?pli=1#restored:wav....com!w%252BIIOgGrRQA

Peter Joseph wrote:

I have talked about physics, medicine and many issues with him and he is a catalog of important information and unique methods. Some of his awareness of scientific issues are so profound that he refuses to let me even address them publicly for they are too powerful. .

Re:Wheres The Scientific Method?

mouho wrote:
This sounds pretty elitist to me… Maybe that’s true and wise thing to do but claims of one having some powerful secret information rings my alarm bell. (As we say in Finland.)


Fresco is talking about a direction, a plan of using a certain kind of methodology to approach building a global civilization on earth. He is in no position to rule or guide any of us, and can only do his best to educate us to learn about this direction. Same as Peter is doing. We can choose to agree that "yes, I agree with this approach" or not.

The fact that they wont be able to tell us EVERYTHING, and be OPEN about EVERYTHING rests heavily on the fact that we cant trust each other in this world full of greed and disruption. They are most likely waiting for enough people educated about this idea, to emerge through time and help alleviate this feeling of "elitism", that our infancy makes some of us feel, partly I believe, cause people dont really get the ideas yet and cant handle talking about these issues as well as PJ can, let alone Fresco. (I include myself into this category) Some seem to feel that PJ is the only one privy to certain information. This is probably NOT true.

He is not a leader, especially after we get more people who are really educated about this approach and can serve as a response pad for criticism like Peter can. I cant yet, I am trying to do that, by reading, by listening to PJ's and Fresco's presentations - NOT because I idolize them, but because I dont have current information about this direction anywhere else and they know most about these issues and have done THE MOST for this direction. However, I also try to read through the reading list - something that eveyrone should be doing if theyre serious about being taken seriously when addressing these issues. Because these ideas are not all that new! Only the names, Venus Project and TZM, are perhaps new. In other words we're not strapping ourselves into a vessel guided by Jacque Fresco. We are learning about a direction and deciding whether it makes sense or not.

We are all projecting our own values into this. I was listening to a past radio address yesterday, and found myself cringe at the idea that there wouldn't be any body building activity in the future. Then I caught myself: who excactly knows that for sure? Nobody! I think Fresco is only saying that MOST likely there wont be that kind of vanity in the future. Second, worrying about the preservation of values dear to us, reveals that we are not yet over the saturation by present day values over our judgement about "what the future could be". And that is the hardest part in accepting this information and also, I think, the reason for suspicion against the Venus Project. We all have a long way to go, and that seems to be the best thing to say to ourselves at any point. Learn more, question everything, but ask specifics rather than generally declare TVP to be some money making scam; which, if it is such, is the worst I have ever seen in my life.

I see your point, its valid.

Your right in saying other people need to be able to speak for the movement, without this the movement will be stagnate. An important note though, however is that when Peter and Jacque speak, you know they understand the movement completely and would convey the ideals of the movement correctly.

A problem one could run in to letting anybody from the movement speak on behalf of the movement, especially in early critical stages, is that if a person conveyed the wrong message it could cause damage. Of course ZM currently wants everybody to do their own marketing thing and work towards the goal, but as so far as talking on 'behalf' of ZM the organisation, I'm currently in favor of the official messages coming from the key figures in the organisation.

To put it another way more politely, the people who have spent the MOST TIME researching and working on the project are the best ones to talk to the public about it. This being said, As this forum works on the various projects in the project section, I think one of them should be establishing a program whereby people can be assessed on various quotients and if certain parameters are met, that individual might then be able to talk publicly like the OP said.

I'm not sure if this assessment goes within the framework of TVP, but I feel it would if the group collaborated and decided what the knowledge and skill requirements were to perform public relations. This wouldn't necessarily require a university style degree in public relations, I think a person would probably be just as able if given proper testing again, duration of membership, assessed on what they have contributed to, tested for knowledge on literature, etc.

In the ideal world of TVP, you wouldn't need an assigned person to do PR, because if somebody said the wrong thing, technology would probably correct their mistake right away. And even more importantly, retarded media would be redundant. In the current system, one mistake the media could pounce all over it, isolating a large segment of the population from learning about ZM/TVP.

I agree, sticking to the 'Official' speakers is fine for now, but only because there are not enough people who REALLY understand what this direction is about.

From what I understand, people need to realize that this proposal supports a dedication to a "methodology," which is the scientific method. When different people start popping up who can explain and take into consideration many different angles and skewed views that people have about new systems, we can start endorsing many more people to talk about this. And ALL of those people understand that they can't get caught up talking about their views about Climate Change, for example, or other irrelevancies caused by the monetary system. The Venus Project-type redesign of our culture will fix all of that. But not if we dont stick to the scientific method in the planning of our system...

kaligonov wrote:
Peter Joseph wrote:

I have talked about physics, medicine and many issues with him and he is a catalog of important information and unique methods. Some of his awareness of scientific issues are so profound that he refuses to let me even address them publicly for they are too powerful. .

Re:Wheres The Scientific Method?

mouho wrote:
This sounds pretty elitist to me… Maybe that’s true and wise thing to do but claims of one having some powerful secret information rings my alarm bell. (As we say in Finland.)


Fresco is talking about a direction, a plan of using a certain kind of methodology to approach building a global civilization on earth. He is in no position to rule or guide any of us, and can only do his best to educate us to learn about this direction. Same as Peter is doing. We can choose to agree that "yes, I agree with this approach" or not.

I agree that he is in no position to rule us, but he certainly seems to be guiding us and giving us anwsers...

And there are people that seems to be making decisions. All of them doesn't seem to be so creat...

<Mouho> oh. I just talked with some guy that said those main web page of TZM is not effective enough meaning multiple .css files and other web page stuff that I don't really understand so well..
<Mouho> He claimed that he had optimated page to be smaller and so download faster, but he wasn't listened... don't really know what that was about... don't know if he has tried to contact developer teams well enough or what that was all about
<vinces> Mouho: there are some current issues within the movement, in terms of development
<vinces> the main site could be made a lot better. but the current owners of the site don't appear to want help from professionals .. this is true

So, I agree all the main ideas of RBE and other suggestions of TVP, but for example I don't agree with that kind of approach with those web pages. And it's example of bad leadership / no leader ship. I think u would recognize this if u would use scientific method with honest heart.

***
kaligonov wrote:

We all have a long way to go, and that seems to be the best thing to say to ourselves at any point. Learn more, question everything, but ask specifics rather than generally declare TVP to be some money making scam; which, if it is such, is the worst I have ever seen in my life.

I've never said something which could be = "generally declare TVP to be some money making scam". If it is I agree that it is one of "the worst I have ever seen in my life."

I would like us to see having conversation about management of TZM and leadership issues, 'cause those issues don't vanish if we close our eyes.

And I'm not totally alone in this... http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=227147#227147

I suggest that we would try to use scientific method to solve this problem - to upgrade our TZM management.

There is already a wave about this wave.google.com/wave/?pli=1#restored:wav....com!w%252BIIOgGrRQA

And opensource type of method seems closes to scientific method what we can use now...

And yeah, PJ has done some amazing work with this movement. That's why hearing this makes me sad

<Mouho> and that makes me sad that it starts to feel to me that they just want to kinda shut their eyes for these proplems...
<vinces> yeah Mouho, I think the developers here were making great progress a few weeks ago
<vinces> 30 developers all working together .. untill this crap happened
<vinces> the bans and the moderation
<vinces> and mods being force to ban member s
<vinces> mods being removed from mod because they questioned the moderation issue
<vinces> private closed meeting of only a few mods, in which they discuss other member can create laws that no one can question
<vinces> to name a feqw things

Mouho, you also need to factor in the fact that the work done by the members to have their community head in RBE direction isn't posted (or at least not posted in a way that makes it seem like a major announcement, or urgent important news and such, like PJ's videos are). IMO, if more and more members made videos/announced about how they have done something to help local community or a new concept they have that could be added to an RBE, or made a movie about TVP like PJ did, then PJ or JF or Roxanne will no longer appear to be the leader. In fact to me, PJ appears to be more of a leader in TZM than JF or Roxanne. He even talks about TVP much more clearly than JF's rants (I don't want to bash JF's lectures but I wish he made more structured presentations about TVP like PJ does).